Nicene Creed and Scripture

I find the Nicene Creed confusing and contradictory, and believe it to be a 4th century compromise brokered by Constantine in an effort to reduce conflict and solidify his own power as emporer. I’m not aware of any claim of this Creed to be inspired or to have a divine origin.

I find the creed to be contradictory to the teachings of Jesus about his own nature as described in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

For example, how do you explain the voice from heaven at Jesus’ baptism in Matthew 3:16-17, or Jesus’ prayer in John 17: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:”

or Jesus’ description of His unity with the Father being similar to the unity all of us experience as followers of Christ later in that chapter: ” . . . Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”

or the variety of other references to Jesus looking up to heaven and hearing a voice, as in John 12:28: “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

“Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.”

Who was Jesus praying to? And who was that voice from heaven? Was he a ventriloquist? The people around him certainly didn’t perceive it that way.

For your reference, here is a good description of the nature of Christ in this aspect from the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 15

“I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

“And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

“The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

“And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

“And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.”

In other words, I believe Jesus could be referred to as both the Father and the Son, and He was the Lord of the Old Testament and the Creator of the Earth. But, he also had a Father in Heaven who He followed and prayed to, and who introduced him with a voice from heaven as “My Beloved Son.” The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all are perfectly unified, “one” in purpose, just as all of us followers of Christ should be.

To me, that concept makes more sense and seems more compatible with the Bible than the Nicene Creed does.

Nicene Creed, Bible, and Book of Mormon

Quite often, when others ask whether Mormons are Christians, they ignore all the definitions of "Christian" from the most popular dictionaries of the day, and go straight to the Nicene Creed.  They suggest that we cannot be Christian unless we believe this creed.

About 16 years ago, I spent two years actively talking religion among hundreds of different people in a major city of the U.S.  Most of these people call themselves Christian, and a few go to church regularly.  I did not find one who cited or even summarize the Nicene Creed.  If this creed is an essential Christian belief, it is known to only the most orthodox of die-hard "Christians," and is certainly not taught or emphasized in the Christian churches of today.

Here's the wikipedia article about the Nicene Creed, which gives some good background and links.

I have not found any claim that this creed was revealed by God or divinely inspired.  Instead, it was a political compromise, brokered by the Emporer Constantine to enable peace among the growing and conflicting groups of people who believed in Jesus Christ, and to solidify his power over both the Church and the State.

At any rate, here a review of  the creed with the Bible and with latter-day scripture, including the Book of Mormon..

First the 325 AD version:
"We believe in one God, the Father of the Almighty, 
Agree, with one question:
1)  If God is "The Father,"  who is "the Almighty?"  I would have to assume "The Almighty" here is referring to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but it's not clear.  


 Exodus 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Nephi 13:41  for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.


3 Nephi 11:31  the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

3 Nephi 11:32  this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Moses 1:3And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?


Maker of all things visible and invisible.
Agree:
Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Helaman 14:12  And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.


Moses 2:1   I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.    (Note:  This book of "Moses" was a revelation through Joseph Smith, and differs slightly from the Old Testament)

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, 

Agree:

1 Nephi 11:21  Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! 

1 Nephi 11:18  Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

1 Nephi 11:32  And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God wasjudged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

Jacob 4:11   be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son,

Alma 5:48  I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.

Alma 13:9  Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. 

Moses 1:6   And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is noGod beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

being of one substance with the Father;

Disagree, if by "substance" this means identical in physical matter--or combined physically or materially.  

1 Nephi 11:21  Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! 
1 Nephi 11:18  Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

1 Nephi 11:32  And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

3 Nephi 11:32  And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; 

Agree:

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.

 33And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross andslain for the sins of the world.

Doctrine and Covenants 35:1-2

Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one.

 [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]


http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.18.17-18?lang=eng#17

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the sameunchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

 18And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

Catholic Testamony vs. Mormon Testimony of Christ

Here's a Catholic member's testimony of Christ posted as a comment to the blog Traditional Catholicism:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; consubstantial with the Father, by Whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified also for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried: And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven. He sitteth at the right hand of the Father: and He shall come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead: and His kingdom shall have no end: And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, Who, together with the Father [and the Son], is adored and glorified: Who spoke by the prophets. And one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I expect the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

As you say, this is quite different from your belief. This isn’t the whole of my belief, but it is a good and brief summary.

 And my response:

Aaron:
I’ve carefully read each sentence from your testimony paragraph that you suggest is “very different” from my beliefs, and compared them to the verses I’ve already quoted from the Book of Mormon above.

They still seem awfully similar to me.

Honestly, I can’t see any substantive differences between  your testimony and the statements in the Book of Mormon, except for the word, “consubstantial,” which I’m not familiar with and is not found in the Bible. I could even agree with the word “catholic” when used as you did as an non-capitalized adjective as defined by Webster: “universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all; or pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.”

I also love and agree with John 1:1-2, which you quote. “In the beginning was the Word. . .”

It sounds like we both agree about not just the teachings, but also the nature of Jesus Christ: “God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.” (Book of Mormon)

I even agree that God (I’m used to the word Godhead, rather than Trinity) is “simultaneously God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, who are three distinct persons but one and only True God.”

Our only difference on that topic that I can see is that I feel we can understand how God can be all three distinct and yet remain “one”, and you feel it’s a “divine mystery” that we can never figure out. I believe God wants us to understand Him and who He is, so that we can more effectively emulate Him and pray to Him.

In addition to our matching beliefs about the divinity of Jesus Christ, our Churches agree quite well in what it means to follow Jesus in real life.

Our Churches work together on numerous social issues in the US and abroad. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and LDS Charities gives heavily to and works closely with Catholic Charities internationally. In Salt Lake City, the Mormon Church is a heavy supporter and donor to the Catholic Catheral of the Madelaine, where our two Churches work together to help relieve suffering and poverty in Utah. The Catholic Cathedral is a key distribution point for food produced by the Mormon Church for the poor in Salt Lake City, using both Mormon and Catholic volunteers!

This united effort and many others like it to strengthen marriage and the family are a result of our joint belief in Jesus’ teachings about helping the poor and needy, and about strengthening the family.

I love and celebrate the many Christ-like works that Catholics and the Catholic Church engage in, and I believe you’re doing these good efforts because you are following Jesus Christ.

In other words, I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge you’re a Christian, even though I think you’re slightly off with your belief that the Trinity is a mystery that we can never understand.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that I can also believe in Jesus Christ, or be a “Christian”?