Nicene Creed, Bible, and Book of Mormon

Quite often, when others ask whether Mormons are Christians, they ignore all the definitions of "Christian" from the most popular dictionaries of the day, and go straight to the Nicene Creed.  They suggest that we cannot be Christian unless we believe this creed.

About 16 years ago, I spent two years actively talking religion among hundreds of different people in a major city of the U.S.  Most of these people call themselves Christian, and a few go to church regularly.  I did not find one who cited or even summarize the Nicene Creed.  If this creed is an essential Christian belief, it is known to only the most orthodox of die-hard "Christians," and is certainly not taught or emphasized in the Christian churches of today.

Here's the wikipedia article about the Nicene Creed, which gives some good background and links.

I have not found any claim that this creed was revealed by God or divinely inspired.  Instead, it was a political compromise, brokered by the Emporer Constantine to enable peace among the growing and conflicting groups of people who believed in Jesus Christ, and to solidify his power over both the Church and the State.

At any rate, here a review of  the creed with the Bible and with latter-day scripture, including the Book of Mormon..

First the 325 AD version:
"We believe in one God, the Father of the Almighty, 
Agree, with one question:
1)  If God is "The Father,"  who is "the Almighty?"  I would have to assume "The Almighty" here is referring to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but it's not clear.  


 Exodus 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Nephi 13:41  for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.


3 Nephi 11:31  the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

3 Nephi 11:32  this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Moses 1:3And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?


Maker of all things visible and invisible.
Agree:
Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Helaman 14:12  And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.


Moses 2:1   I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.    (Note:  This book of "Moses" was a revelation through Joseph Smith, and differs slightly from the Old Testament)

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, 

Agree:

1 Nephi 11:21  Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! 

1 Nephi 11:18  Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

1 Nephi 11:32  And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God wasjudged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

Jacob 4:11   be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son,

Alma 5:48  I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.

Alma 13:9  Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. 

Moses 1:6   And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is noGod beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

being of one substance with the Father;

Disagree, if by "substance" this means identical in physical matter--or combined physically or materially.  

1 Nephi 11:21  Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! 
1 Nephi 11:18  Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

1 Nephi 11:32  And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

3 Nephi 11:32  And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; 

Agree:

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.

 33And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross andslain for the sins of the world.

Doctrine and Covenants 35:1-2

Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one.

 [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]


http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.18.17-18?lang=eng#17

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the sameunchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

 18And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

Catholic Testamony vs. Mormon Testimony of Christ

Here's a Catholic member's testimony of Christ posted as a comment to the blog Traditional Catholicism:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; consubstantial with the Father, by Whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified also for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried: And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven. He sitteth at the right hand of the Father: and He shall come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead: and His kingdom shall have no end: And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, Who, together with the Father [and the Son], is adored and glorified: Who spoke by the prophets. And one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I expect the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

As you say, this is quite different from your belief. This isn’t the whole of my belief, but it is a good and brief summary.

 And my response:

Aaron:
I’ve carefully read each sentence from your testimony paragraph that you suggest is “very different” from my beliefs, and compared them to the verses I’ve already quoted from the Book of Mormon above.

They still seem awfully similar to me.

Honestly, I can’t see any substantive differences between  your testimony and the statements in the Book of Mormon, except for the word, “consubstantial,” which I’m not familiar with and is not found in the Bible. I could even agree with the word “catholic” when used as you did as an non-capitalized adjective as defined by Webster: “universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all; or pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.”

I also love and agree with John 1:1-2, which you quote. “In the beginning was the Word. . .”

It sounds like we both agree about not just the teachings, but also the nature of Jesus Christ: “God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.” (Book of Mormon)

I even agree that God (I’m used to the word Godhead, rather than Trinity) is “simultaneously God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, who are three distinct persons but one and only True God.”

Our only difference on that topic that I can see is that I feel we can understand how God can be all three distinct and yet remain “one”, and you feel it’s a “divine mystery” that we can never figure out. I believe God wants us to understand Him and who He is, so that we can more effectively emulate Him and pray to Him.

In addition to our matching beliefs about the divinity of Jesus Christ, our Churches agree quite well in what it means to follow Jesus in real life.

Our Churches work together on numerous social issues in the US and abroad. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and LDS Charities gives heavily to and works closely with Catholic Charities internationally. In Salt Lake City, the Mormon Church is a heavy supporter and donor to the Catholic Catheral of the Madelaine, where our two Churches work together to help relieve suffering and poverty in Utah. The Catholic Cathedral is a key distribution point for food produced by the Mormon Church for the poor in Salt Lake City, using both Mormon and Catholic volunteers!

This united effort and many others like it to strengthen marriage and the family are a result of our joint belief in Jesus’ teachings about helping the poor and needy, and about strengthening the family.

I love and celebrate the many Christ-like works that Catholics and the Catholic Church engage in, and I believe you’re doing these good efforts because you are following Jesus Christ.

In other words, I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge you’re a Christian, even though I think you’re slightly off with your belief that the Trinity is a mystery that we can never understand.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that I can also believe in Jesus Christ, or be a “Christian”?

Christian Summary and Catholic Q&A

An excellent summary of our official beliefs, in addition to the scriptures I’ve already quoted, is found in Jesus Christ–Study Resources, which includes a document “The Living Christ” signed by all 12 apostles in January 2000.

Many of your questions delve into a variety of doctrines separate from whether or not we believe in Jesus Christ or are “Christians.” I’ve never asserted that all of my beliefs align with yours or with other Christian denominations–if they did, I would join your church, and there be no need for mine–or for any of the protestant denominations.

I could list a variety of doctrines that I, and many other Christian denominations, disagree with Catholics on, such as transubstantiation–that the bread and wine of the sacrament literally becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ inside our bodies, or that all infants (or anyone for that matter) will automatically go to hell unless baptized first, or that baptism by sprinkling a few drops of water is acceptable, when the scriptures are clear that Jesus went down into the Jordan river to be baptized.

Or, I could talk about the issue that the name of your church doesn’t include the words “Jesus” or “Christ”, and you claim to be “apostolic,” yet have no apostles–one of the core elements of Jesus’ original church. We could go on and on with our differences.

However, I don’t feel those areas in which I disagree with you make you therefore not a “Christian.”

You say you believe in Jesus Christ and therefore you call yourself a “Christian”. I believe you. I’m just asking for the same courtesy from you.

I believe the Bible is the Word of God and rely heavily on its’ description of Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon reinforces and underscores those beliefs, as I’ve already shown.

Having said that, here are some answers to your questions:

Q–”- do you believe that God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the first beings to have existed? Do you believe that in *any* context, from *any* point of view, this God was preceded by something else? Or was He the “unmoved mover”, per Aristotle.”

A– “In the beginning was the Word. . . ” I believe that, and it’s the official doctrine of our Church. See God the Father for a detail of our beliefs on this. Also see next question.

Q– “- do you believe that God the Father always was, and has never undergone any kind of change? Do you believe God was once like man, and then ascended?”

A– Probably not relevant to whether or not we believe in Jesus Christ. SeeGodhead for our beliefs. Among others, relevant Book of Mormon scriptures include Mormon 9:9 “For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?” 1 Nephi 10:18 “For he is the asame yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.”

Joseph Smith did give a sermon one time that suggested God had a history of being a man, but I haven’t heard this taught much in my lifetime. It’s definitely not a central part of our current teachings, and is not relevant to our current interactions with God.

However, the concept does make sense, though, from my reading of the Bible. Jesus, who was God and the Creator, became a Man, and then rose the third day, to become a resurrected God. Then, Jesus said he only did what he had seen the father do, so it seems logical His Father could have done the same thing at one point in the eternities previous to anything relevant to our earth-life.

Q– do you believe there are any other persons within the Godhead other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

A– No. See Godhead

Q— Do you believe that in the process of the incarnation, Christ became fully man? If so, do you believe in the hypostatic union?

A– Yes. I’ve already answered this above with Book of Mormon verses. See againMosiah 3 3 Nephi 11:14 , which I’ve already quoted. In the Book of Mormon, Nephi calls this The Condescension of God There are numerous other affirmations of this in Jesus Christ-study resources

Q— do you believe in Hell? And by Hell, I mean Hell as Christians understand it, not “outer darkness”. Is Hell eternal? Is there any way of getting out of Hell?

A This is not relevant to whether or not we’re Christian. I believe Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament about this, which are reinforced by the Book of Mormon. See this link for more: Hell

Q–do you believe that there is one heaven, or are there multiple heavens for different classifications of believers?

A–Again, not relevant to whether or not we believe in Christ. However, one interesting scripture along these lines is John 14:12 “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” Could those mansions be of different sizes and shape, depending on the righteousness of the believers? See also Heaven and Kingdoms of Glory

Q- do you believe that good Mormons can become gods themselves?

A–Again, not relevant to whether or not we believe in Jesus Christ or are “Christians”. Still, here are some Bible verses that guide my beliefs: Romans 8:17“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ” Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” <A href=""http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/82.6?lang=eng#5&quot; Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” .

Definitions of "Christian" and "Son of God"

Sometimes critics will accuse Mormons of defining the Son of God or Christ or God as something different from what they believe, and therefore, "non-christian."  They'll even say, just because we call something "Christ" doesn't make it so, any more than calling a horse a duck, makes it so.

Let's dig into these definitions a bit more.

Here’s a definition of “Son of God,” from The Book of Mormon:

“. . . with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men. . . And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. . . I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.”

All Christians I know agree with this basic description. It’s not a sandwich, mustard, or a duck ; – )

While we’re on the topic, here are definitions of “Christian” from the four most commonly used dictionaries, and a couple of Catholic sources. I’m comfortable with all of them, and believe they represent how most people would define “Christian.”

Popular Dictionaries:
Mirriam-Webster “one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.”

Dictionary.com “a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.”

Oxford English Dictionary a. Of persons and communities: Believing, professing, or belonging to the religion of Christ. 3. Of persons and their qualities or actions: Showing character and conduct consistent with discipleship to Christ; marked by genuine piety; following the precepts and example of Christ; Christ-like.”

Macmillan “the religion based on the ideas of Jesus Christ. Its followers worship in a church.”

Catholic Sources:
Catholic Reference A person who is baptized. A professed Christian also believes in the essentials of the Christian faith, notably in the Apostles’ Creed.

1910 New Catholic Dictionary “Name by which believers in Christ were known soon after His Ascension; it occurs twice in Acts, 11 and 26, and in 1 Peter, 4. Also, the name of the religion which He founded, of its doctrines and precepts; of the life, habits of virtue, piety, spirit and character of His followers; of the Church which is rightly known by this name, as against sects which assume it (Christian Scientists, Christian Socialists); of the civilization which this religion developed in the world as distinguished from the civilizations of paganism, Islamism, Judaism. “

The Bible and the Trinity

Many Christians believe more strongly in the actual Bible language than in the Nicene Creed's explanation of the Godhead.  So do Mormons. 

I feel he Bible is divinely inspired and I give significant weight to it.

On the other hand, I view the Nicene Creed as a political compromise that does not claim to be divinely inspired, but instead was intentionally vague in order to unite various contending Christians under an emperor who was seeking increased power. Constantine wanted to be head of both the Church and State, and couldn’t do that if the Churches were fragmented and disagreed with each other. Like congress today with its compromises and earmarks, the Council of Nicea included something to please everybody, without claiming to have any new inspiration from God.

I also believe God wants us to understand Him, so that we can know Him, seek to emulate Him, and recognize that He also understands us.

My beliefs on the Godhead are heavily influenced by these Biblical scriptures, among others:

Matthew 3:16-17 (Also Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:21-22)
“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke 9:34-36 “While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone.”

John 17 “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:”
” . . . Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”

John 12:28 “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.”

Luke 22:42 “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

Acts 7:55 “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

Other verses like this one referring to Jesus sitting or standing on the “right hand of God” include: Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Acts 5:31, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 12:2, Romans 8:34, Colossians 3:1, 1 Peter 3:22. Talk about some heavy repetition!

Can you point to one reference in the Bible that suggests God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are “one substance”? I cannot find one.

These scriptures make the most sense to me if I believe Jesus, the Son of God, The Only Begotten of the Father, was actually a son, born of Mary and God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus has an actual Father who is actually in heaven, The Father has a separate “will” from Jesus, The Father can speak to Jesus with a voice that others present can hear, and that The Father can stand or sit and have a “right hand.”

That’s why Jesus looked up to heaven to pray, heard a voice from heaven, and referred to his Father so frequently, and that’s why Jesus had a very real struggle to align His will with His Father’s will, and is now standing or sitting on His Father’s right hand.

Suggesting that Jesus and His Father are exactly the same physical substance seems to to me to require that Jesus be an incredibly talented ventriloquist, a schizophrenic, and even intentionally deceptive. Or it requires that we dismiss the Bible entirely as a metaphor that didn’t really happen, but is just a big symbolic parable.

I’ve met quite a few non-Mormon Christians who share this view. But, even if they don’t, I still call them “Christians,” if they believe in Jesus and are trying to follow His teachings.

Bike Bubba–
I never claimed to have the same religion as Catholics or other Christians. If my beliefs were the same, my religion would be pointless and unnecessary, as I’ve already said.

I merely claim to meet Mirriam-Webster’s definition of Christian: “One who professes a belief in Jesus Christ.”

On your other question: I believe that all of us, including Satan, were originally spirit children, or creations, of our Father in Heaven. Satan was once an angel known as Lucifer, as suggested in Isaiah 14:12, who rebelled, was cast out of Heaven, and sought to destroy the agency of mankind and make us miserable, like himself.

He is in continued and direct opposition to, and completely different from, the Only Begotten Son, the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus Christ.

As compared to the 3,925 references to Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon, there are only a handful that mention the devil, and almost always because of his direct opposition to Christ.

While you and I not may not believe the same way about those details, they have no bearing on whether or not I believe in Jesus Christ is the Son of God. If I have a brother who rebels and fights against me and everything I believe in, what relevance does that have to my own beliefs or actions? I don’t see the connection.

By the way, it seems you and I agree the Devil is a “created being.” Who created him? When? Why and how?

Repeated Reference in Scripture, Name of Church

I’m a Mormon, and I’m a Christian.

I believe in Jesus Christ as described by the Bible. If you say you also believe in Jesus Christ, I take you at your word and believe you’re a Christian, regardless of what denomination you subscribe to.

Of course the most important measure of whether we're a disciple of Christ or not is "that ye have love one to another," not which donomination or religion we belong to.  I believe that as well.

Our central belief is that The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the re-established original Christian Church. Jesus Christ Himself restored His teachings and His Church after centuries of human imperfection had drifted into various Christian denominations.

Most early Mormon converts joined the latter-day saints because they had been studying the Bible and searching their world for the denomination that most closely matched the Bible’s teachings. As I study the Bible extensively and daily, I find that my faith matches the Bible’s teachings more closely than the beliefs I find in the other “Christian” denominations in existence.

Here are just a few sample verses from the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ that make our beliefs clear:

2 Nephi 25:26 “And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.”

Mosiah 3:5-10 “For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

” And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

“And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, eblood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

“And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

“And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall dscourge him, and shall crucify him.

“And he shall arise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.”

3 Nephi 11:14 “Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.”

Jesus Christ and his various titles are mentioned another 3,925 times in the Book of Mormon.

More info and current beliefs can be found in study resources on Jesus Christ.

No Christians before 320AD?

My son asked an excellent question one time about Mormons and Christianity:

So, if they believe you are only a Christian if you believe in the Nicene Creed, does that mean there were no Christians before 320 AD?

Excellent question.  Mormons rely heavily on Biblical descriptions of Christ, and God, and are doing their best to re-establish the original Christian Church.  If Peter, James, John, and Paul, Phillip, and the other apostles were Christians without the Nicene Creed, why can't Mormons be?